Comment on Resignation of OTW Director

  1. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 12:51PM UTC

    I mean ao3 is under review for future blocking in germany for accusations of allowing childporn stories under the umbrella of: we allow all fanstories.

    It needs to be said that CSFM reported stories, as per statment to the german government does get deleted and is prohibited and germany is still reviewing things submitted to them and has aparently not reached out to OTW asking for any clarification

    Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 01:04PM UTC

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    1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 03:57PM UTC

      Ironically, ya know what else is illegal in Germany? Nazi ideology, visuals, exaltation of, reproductions of, etc. Guess what else AO3 is not addressing under this excuse of all-inclusiveness to avoid moderating their platform in the year 2023? Fanworks exalting nazi genocide, purposefully, often with the express purpose of harassing other users.

      People really forget that AO3 only cares about what is legal in the USA. The entire ToS is based on that - and there are a lot of things that are legal in the USA that are not in a good part of the rest of the world (CSAM being quite a major one that is highly relevant). I wonder if folks think the OTW would come bat for them on a criminal case outside the US because of stories they've uploaded or read here. And if that sounds absurd to anyone reading this, I'd recommend checking how good of a job the OTW does in regards to protecting or anonymizing user data (hint: it's not great!).

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      1. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 04:10PM UTC

        They could expand the block for that I reckon. Nazi pages get blocked all the time if found. I dont know how Germany decides on these things.

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        1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 05:00PM UTC

          Yeah they've also blocked many a game in Germany (both use and sale) because of that, from all manner of budgets, so I guess we'll see.

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          1. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 05:29PM UTC

            Wolfenstein had to change their whole textures and take out nazi signs. Later germany lifted the strict ban of game related things.

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            1. LordiTheRailgun Tue 23 May 2023 05:44PM UTC

              Damn, you beat me to it. I was just about to mention Wolfenstein and Mecha Hitler.

              But I know they also removed an entire section from I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream because, IIRC, it was about a former Nazi coming to terms with his sins. The damnedest thing is that by removing that section, it made the game unbeatable.

              I wonder if they lifted the ban for that game too.

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      3. moljn Tue 23 May 2023 04:28PM UTC

        CSAM is not allowed on AO3. Fictional, underage porn is not CSAM.

        Stories about Nazis may be tasteless, but it's not something that's easy to draw a line on [ETA: when the archive strives to allow all fictional content], unless there's a call to harassment or illegal action in the story or story notes, or other evidence.

        Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 04:34PM UTC

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        1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 04:59PM UTC

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_child_pornography

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          1. moljn Tue 23 May 2023 05:31PM UTC

            You realize that most laws by far concern themselves with images, right? Anyway, I don't actually care if a few countries equate fictional and real children in this case. No real children have been harmed in the stories that are allowed on the archive.

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            1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 06:17PM UTC

              Sorry, but who asked? I don't care what you think. I don't even know why you're in my replies arguing about a point I never even brought up. I'm very much not having the conversation you seem to think I am having, and I'm not interested in having the one you seem to want to have - at all, really, but especially so with you, random internet user#7983652756324897.

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              1. moljn Tue 23 May 2023 06:40PM UTC

                You're in a public forum. Deal with it.

                You claimed the archive allows CSAM, which in usual internet parlance means images of real children, and I corrected that. And then I added an opinion in relation to what else you said, because again, that's how forums work.

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                1. generalfrings Tue 23 May 2023 10:24PM UTC

                  You must be from the USA, and if you're not, that's highly embarrassing that you give off that vibe. Good luck with that.

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                  1. jedimasterfinch Thu 25 May 2023 09:01AM UTC

                    If someone posts a comment in this pubic space which is open to all, anyone can respond. Moljn, asked or not, has the right to respond with what seem to be relevant points to others here with the same rights to this discussion regarding the archive we all access. You may disagree with their comments but labeling a diverse nation of over 330 million people descended from or emigrated from almost every country on the planet as “highly embarrassing” is insensitive. Each of us is unique, likely all of us here are allies, and we are struggling mightily to figure things out at a time of great change as technology races forward and humanity fights to evolve greater openness and acceptance of its diversity. None of us should be told to feel embarrassed about where we happened to be born.

                    I understand the passion and have myself been carried away with heated commenting elsewhere in the past and so from experience on both sides, I encourage you to debate your ideas while not labeling an entire nation in such a pejorative way. Though not currently perfect, AO3 has long been striving to be a space where fans from everywhere can be safe from generalizing attacks on their ethnicity, orientation, and other immutable traits of identity. Be the change here in the comments you want to see in the archive as a whole.

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                    1. generalfrings Thu 25 May 2023 09:03AM UTC

                      LMAO found the other USAmerican.

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                      1. tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 03:58PM UTC

                        Petition to block people like you from AO3. Honestly. Then all this drama would just go away and everyone could get on happily posting and reading fanfic like we were before.

                        (FYI never set foot in America)

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                        1. generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:01PM UTC

                          Lmfaoo found another one!

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                          1. tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:16PM UTC

                            Another what? Braincell? Cool, but you'll need a lot more to do you any good.

                            Last Edited Sat 27 May 2023 04:16PM UTC

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                            1. generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:19PM UTC

                              Lmaoo thanks for so readily helping demonstrate my point of how embarrassing it is to act like a USAmerican.

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                              1. tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:20PM UTC

                                The only one embarrassing themselves here is you, hun. I wouldn't like to insult any country by speculating you might be from there, though I definitely have a few in mind.

                                Last Edited Sat 27 May 2023 04:21PM UTC

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                                1. generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:26PM UTC

                                  LMAO Please share with the class what your astute assumptions are, we must know the USAmerican's famously accurate assumptions on the rest of the world!

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          3. tillwehavefaces Sat 27 May 2023 04:15PM UTC

            Lmao who's gonna tell her like 35% of AO3 is "child pornography" by her definition?

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            1. generalfrings Sat 27 May 2023 04:23PM UTC

              "Her"? "My" definition? LOL

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    3. delilahdraken Tue 23 May 2023 04:13PM UTC

      Wasn't that investigation stopped because someone in the review organisation didn't follow correct procedures?

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      1. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 04:22PM UTC

        The initial so called indexing was taken back but as per netwatch the page is still under review

        I also dont understand how they never reached out to ao3 for a statement

        Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 04:25PM UTC

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        1. delilahdraken Tue 23 May 2023 05:10PM UTC

          Yeah, it was very strange that they never contacted ao3.

          Also, it would probably be quite difficult to get the indexing/ban to stick. If they followed the law as it is exactly written over 80% of all books marketed as Young Adult would also need to be banned.

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          1. wheretobe Tue 23 May 2023 05:28PM UTC

            tbh I dont see them enforcing it either. To me it feels like someone was pissed at the page, alleged there was child porn and never had proof or it was proper deleted. but the page already banned and now they are simply watching it for further transgressions. Its just odd not to talk to the group behind the page and actually learn about this page.

            But I guess the Internet is Neuland to the Germans....

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            1. delilahdraken Tue 23 May 2023 06:45PM UTC

              To me it feels like someone was pissed at the page, alleged there was child porn and never had proof or it was proper deleted

              It does sound like someone with a grudge, yes.

              As to the enforceability, out of curiosity I asked a criminal defence lawyer some time ago. I was told that police do not actively go after written text here in Germany. It gets used as additional evidence when they investigate someone that already has visual media, but without pictures as evidence that a real human was harmed they don't care.

              The investigators have more important fish to hunt.

              Last Edited Tue 23 May 2023 06:45PM UTC

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