It’s not AO3’s role to judge that something is bigoted. It is up to individual users to make that call and avoid those works. AO3 has always been about curating one’s own experience.
And I’m not saying I’m pro-harassment. If it targets specific people or incites violence, it rightfully gets deleted.
Going further would require AO3 volunteers to make subjective calls (because there is no objective handbook for deciding what is bigoted and what isn’t) and remove content that others could find offensive, which, when you get down to it, could be any fic on the archive. The current policies are inclusive of as many fanworks as legally feasible, which benefits everyone because no one has to wonder if they’re going to get targeted in some fic purge or banned for writing about controversial subjects unless they’re using it to harass individuals.
Three years ago they promised to use a diversity consultant to look over their TOS (among other systems) and see if there were any blindspots and the easiest thing I can look for off the top of my head is the fact that there are several cases of intentional racism on the part of the author or commenter standing on AO3 (temporarily or permanently) because the TOS doesn't specify what qualifies as harassment, and when it does it doesn't explicitly explain what happens when you target a group. Such as race, gender, ethnicity, etc. If you search through the current demands EndOTWRacism is making they give very explicit examples of intentional harassment on the part of poster not going down at all, or taking several go-arounds with the Abuse Team.
Three years to hire a single person is pretty awful, especially since it's not hard to find a DEI consultant in this day and age. AO3 back in 2020 admitted that the current system for harassment and racism was flawed and vowed to look it over. But the only thing that they were able to do in all three years was finish the project that was already in the works completely separate from it; the Block and Mute Function. I am very grateful that these functions are here, but I'm just confused as to how after three years of OTW admitting that the TOS is somewhat inequitable in terms of targeting groups that we still can't get an answer as to what they have come up with as solutions.
Harassment TOS has loopholes such as "repeated action" or "towards individuals" that make it incredibly easy for group-targeted harassment to also slip through the cracks. Some examples were also of hateful speech directly being in the title, comments, or tags but if they were not "repeated" or "towards individuals" it wasn't considered harassment under the current TOS.
I did look through the @endOTWracism Twitter account, and I couldn't find examples of any specific posts on the archive. Maybe I missed them while skimming, and I understand the reluctance to link to specific words to avoid encouraging harassment themselves, but it's difficult to tell if there's a systemic enforcement problem when I can't find examples.
I agree that three years to find a hire is inexcusable and progress should be made on that promise as soon as possible.
When it comes to hateful speech being present in titles and tags, you encounter the problem I described earlier of tasking AO3 volunteers with deciding what is or what isn't offensive. And they would likely have to judge intent--for instance, I don't think most people would accuse a POC using an ethnic slur of being racist, or gay people who use homophobic slurs of being homophobic, but those kinds of identities are impossible to establish on the internet. I don't think it is AO3's responsibility to decide which words are appropriate for which people to say. To quote AO3's Diversity Statement, "You are free to express your creativity within the few restrictions needed to keep the service viable for other users. The Archive strives to protect your rights to free expression and privacy."
I also agree that group-based harassment should be covered under the TOS. I don't believe that someone saying, as an example, "lynch all [marginalized group]" should be treated differently from someone saying that towards a specific person. However, I do think the Archive's current stance on distinguishing between targeted threats/harassment, and the depiction or display of bigotry in general, is reasonable and necessary to protect inclusion of all kinds on AO3.
Of course, we're not talking about the usage of the words themselves in any context but for the harassment TOS to cover their usage when used for harassment in general. The harassment TOS already states that intentional harassment is against the rules. The reporting system on AO3 requires someone to report harassment for AO3 to screen them. They do not prescreen. We're not asking them for a unilateral ban of words, but for them to overlook what is currently on the TOS like they have promised. We're not asking them to throw out their core philosophy.
I don’t remember the actual names of the accounts involved and my Tumblr archive is a nightmare, but there is actually a specific incident I’ve seen brought up. We’ll call its victim Jane because again, don’t remember.
Jane is a noted anti-racism activist who left a comment on a work noting that it contained racist tropes. She wasn’t nasty about it, she was just like “you may want to be aware.” The account’s response was to share all her other socmed accounts and encourage followers to hatebomb her and possibly even track her down in meatspace.
AO3 did nothing, on the basis that the TOS doesn’t cover offsite harassment. I feel like that author’s actions are an instaban, personally—you do not use one site to encourage harassment and then get off Scot-free because the act occurred on the site you sent people to.
From an enforcement standpoint I can see why AO3 would be reluctant to get involved in those situations; then AO3 staffers have to investigate acts that occurred offsite, determine if everyone is really who they say they are on other platforms, try and untangle what's going on. I'm imagining an AO3 volunteer having to trawl through Discord chatlogs, for instance. It's unfortunate, but I think that might stretch their resources to a breaking point. My understanding is that the Abuse team can already take over a month to respond to on-site reports.
Ideally AO3 should be able to respond to that kind of problem, but I don't know how you would organize it in a way that wouldn't demand double the manpower, as well as tasking volunteers with making subjective judgments (if someone says 'no, that wasn't my [Twitter] account sending those messages, it's an impersonator or a troll' how do you sort out the truth?).
I mean, I can see that, but surely if you’re posting someone else’s information without their consent that should be bannable. Like it’s different from me saying “hey, if you want to chat my Discord handle is X!” or even “acidbirth said to let you know we’re both on Tumblr, you can find them at tumblrusername.tumblr.com if you want to chat more.” If I were to say “hey, acidbirth told me my depiction of British school uniforms is wrong. Find them on Tumblr at tumblrusername, Twitter at twitterusername, and Discord at acidbirth#1234, show them what happens to someone who fucks with me,” like that should just be an automatic game over. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go straight to banhammer. That’s calling for harassment.
I apologize, I misread the part about them linking 'Jane's' social media accounts directly on AO3. There should have been a ban involved there, I agree, as the intent is completely obvious.
Such cases as? And how would any flaw in the AO3 report harassment system be linked specifically to racism, if the system itself is flawed and has the same reaction towards any kind of harassment?
I'm just following what OTW's statement had explained was a problem in 2020 when they addressed racism and promised to have the diversity consultant to look over OTW's policies. It's flawed towards several types of harassment actually. But at the time in 2020, the subject they were speaking on was how racial harassment on AO3 needed to be solved.
It's been around three years in the making. The way I see it, I want all of the harassment section of the TOS to better describe different types of harassment. The specification on race is because of the promises that they made to fix those issues.
You are right, tho', in a time where DEI hires are just about everywhere, there's no reason or excuse for them not to have hired someone by now. A lot of the donations go towards legal expenses, but a cursory glance of financial reports show they could at least consider hiring a person or two as a DEI consultant on how to draft a policy that firmly states the kinds of harassment is not tolerated on AO3.
The evidentiary basis for believing that DEI consulting actually reduces racism in any measurable way, for all the money that's been pumped into the field, is astonishingly weak. And frankly, if I run into someone inciting hatred, blocks and mutes are more than sufficient to not have to deal with them anymore.
I'm fine with tightening up the rules about group targeting, provided (as happens too rarely online) they're enforced in an even-handed manner, instead of becoming a case marked by favoritism where some people can be nasty and no one else can be nasty right back to them. But I do think bans on anything short of spambots should require repeated violations, banning is a serious matter and should hit people who are genuinely only in here to spread hatred, not people who have a lapse in judgment or don't realize how the rules are being enforced.
I'm not arguing that the DEI consultant could wave a magic wand and fix everything. Rather, I'm just outlining the explicit agreement that OTW made in 2020, along with "Looking over the TOS for targeted harassment". The DEI consultant is being mentioned here because it's the first step. The consultant was supposed to overlook those changes. The rest of the promises are dependent on red tape, several members collaborating, and a lot of internal politics. But hiring someone (not their work itself) should be fast-tracked.
I'm rather just pointing out the fact that they said they would do something about it. Not that their ideals and plans are flawless. The lack of a consultant is holding up all of the other promises that OTW had made (outside of the coding project) and that needs to be solved first. The consultant was implied to be the capstone for the listed actions. They're too central and need to be handled first.
Also, IIRC AO3 doesn't have a strike rule. I also am not a fan of unilateral bans without warnings though.
The board of directors covered the hiring of a diversity consultant in their minutes: https://www.transformativeworks.org/board_minutes/board-meeting-minutes-27-march-2023/
It'a under 'Update on the OTWs Diversity Work' and will be a regular section of the minutes going forward. Having that section also answers the End OTW Racism call to have more transparency into what's going on.
No, they don't. They never do and never have. I've been here since 2016. This whole "discourse" became prominent in 2020 for reasons I'm sure I don't need to explain. All the way back then I asked them for proof. It's 3 years later and I have never, seen, EVER, ANYWHERE, these people actually provide examples of the "racist harrassment" this site is supposedly rife with.
What have I seen on this site? In my casual browsing (over many years), a tiny handful (can literally be counted on one hand) of troll fics featuring Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank and things like that. Offensive? Well, given it's all too obviously just some stupid kid trying to be edgy, not to me. I'm sure they would be to a lot of people tho. Does that mean they should be banned? Well, given this is a site which freely allows graphic child rape erotica, not unless AO3 is going to start banning a whole lot of other content as well, which would mean going down exactly the slippery people are warning about, and end up just like ff.net (i.e. practically dead).
I encounter content I find disgusting, offensive or just extremely poorly-written on this site every day. Does it annoy me? Do I wish I didn't have to see it? Yes. Do I whinge for that stuff to be removed? No. Blocking and muting were long-overdue but vital tools. The ability to permanently blacklist tags is something that should be added pronto (I'm aware of web extensions; those don't work on mobile, which is where I do my browsing and reading). This is the way to deal with things. More power to the users, not the moderators.
For whatever it's worth, I am not straight, not white not "neurotypical" and these people do not fucking speak for me. I write dark, toxic, depraved, EXTREMELY graphic and kinky smut. Usually some flavour of dubcon or noncon. I use this site because it's literally the only platform that allows me to post anything and everything I write, without it being manually filtered/reviewed by someone's else's scrutiny and judgment. I've tried looking elsewhere. There is nowhere else, or at least nothing with a comparably large size, reach and community and certainly nothing with as good an interface (you only realise what an absolute godsend once you try to navigate sites without it). I would not be a fanfic writer without AO3. I am so grateful AO3 exists and it would break my heart to see it change its stance of including anything that doesn't violate US law, and become just another FF.net or Wattpad. If that happened, I don't know where I would go. I might even stop writing fanfic altogether. So I pray to every power in the universe these people don't win.
Fucking this! I feel like people have been wishing for this for ages. Updates and coding are daunting tasks, I understand so naturally it's not going to happen overnight but OTW really needs to implement this - preferably soon. It makes me a little curious about their priorities when blocking and muting were functions that took a very long time to implement considering how old the Archive is.
We can have favorite tags, so why not a tag blacklist?
Indeed I too would love for them to keep the archive open and lawless as well while also giving users the power to curate their experience.
"Indeed I too would love for them to keep the archive open and lawless as well while also giving users the power to curate their experience."
This exactly. Let people post what they want to post, see what they want to see, and interact with who they want to interact with. Then everyone should be happy. Anyone who isn't is a puritan police stater on a power trip.
This discussion about "censoring vs moderating + slippery slope argument" reminds me of the whole Tiffany G drama from last year. Where this supposed veteran of the site ran for election as director of the board and wanted to "make the site more palatable" for China since, ostensibly, the Archive is banned there. It caused a massive shitstorm and absolutely no one was on board. Even a petition was made.
She never specified what exactly she wanted to change but active censorship was inferred. The whole thing was so surreal, it makes me wonder if it was just one big elaborate troll.
Honestly, talks about censorship and whatnot wouldn't and shouldn't be a hot topic if the OTW just gave the users more power.
I didn't hear about this controversy, but the only reason Chinese users were coming here at all was for the slash I believe (the CCP not being a fan of men bumping uglies even though it's not technically illegal anymore there). So if they censored that out (which would wipe out, what, half the site's content? Certainly every bit of it I've ever contributed lol), they'd be removing the one (or at least the main) appeal for Chinese fangirls in the first place lol
"Honestly, talks about censorship and whatnot wouldn't and shouldn't be a hot topic if the OTW just gave the users more power."
Exactly, what we need is subsidiarity in action. All power to the people! Really think decentralisation is the way to go, not just with this, but social media in general (e.g. Mastodon or what Jack is supposed to be trying to do with Blue Sky). And in fact with politics and society in general. People in America already seem to be sorting themselves into states by values. Sadly those of us stuck in unitary regimes don't have that option. Why not extend that everywhere, all the way? Like the clades in Neal's The Diamond Age. Wouldn't that be actual, workable, anarchism in practice? Freedom of association. So much needless conflict comes from forcing incompatible people to coexist. But anyway, I'll get off my soapbox.
It shouldn't be *that* hard to have the site filter interface remember your blacklisted tags given someone's already coded a Chrome Extension for it with TamperMonkey...
I tried to be patient throughout that thread, but it was pretty telling that in both cases, the other person fell silent/moved on when asked for evidence. I can see why; the examples cited by their core Tumblr manifesto are more along the lines of generally offensive content rather than actual targeted harassment. It's difficult to avoid concluding that they're simply being coy about what they're actually upset about, and appealing to an allegedly systemic harassment problem to shore up support for an unpopular position, making censorship a core element of the site. I'm skeptical of any movements that are fervently anti-OTW, because it seems like again and again it always comes down to the liberal content policies.
Ah well. I'll keep supporting the archive and voting for board members who will uphold the site's core principles.
Oh, I didn't even see that link. Yeah, of the three examples, the first Transformers one I can possibly give it to them, though from the screenshots all one can tell for sure was that it might have been inspired by the events of 2020, but without appearing to take any stand on it at all, much less an overtly racist one. The second Chinese fandom one was just bizarre and I have no idea what to think or what I was even looking at but it would be a vast stretch to think racism was involved. Just looked like typical weird insensitive porn to me. Almost certainly created by a Chinese fangirl which is just hilarious since this is supposedly about protecting "fans of colour". And the last one they've literally got it twisted around exactly backwards. I happen to have encountered that fic and far from being a "Nazi fic" it's an *anti-Nazi* fic in which the Nazi character gets killed. And it was the *author* who was the victim of harassment at the behest of this "fandom scholar" (and lmao that someone apparently thinks that's a thing). *Everything* these people say is false and in bad faith and nobody should engage with them as if anything else were the case.
It's kind of hilarious that this is what they think constitutes the horrendous deluge of racism driving away Fans of Colour™ from AO3 (by which they actually mean themselves and fellow ideologues and dear Jesus if only it *would* drive them away). I've seen *far* more offensive stuff here in my time. I've literally encountered concentration camp guard rapes Jew porn on here. I think I even saw a fic where Hitler rapes Anne Frank. The Historical RPF 'fandom' is WILD. And actually, lmao, recently I came across one where the blackwashed Ariel from the new Disney live-action Little Mermaid was enslaved and whipped by Prince Eric or something. They're just troll fics and obviously so and not even well done trolls, since they never catch anyone's attention, not even the outrage of the self-designated fandom antiracism crusaders (or jihadists, I guess, would be more appropriate in this case). And it ain't driven me away. As a "fan of colour" (in whose name they're supposedly doing all this) I was a big enough boy to snort in disbelief and click the fuck away. And move on with my day. Like a grown fucking adult.
I found it hard to believe one narrative regarding the alleged systemic harassment of OTW members and/or users because there's conflicting ones and a lot of them with a butt load of minutiae. Was very difficult to pick a side and pick what's true so I stayed away from making a conclusion. I stil have no such thing to dish out.
I agree with you regarding the site's core values. The liberal content policies is something worth protecting. We don't have that freedom elsewhere
I understand that some of the demands was hiring a diversity consultant which, if they do and things go well, why the hell not. I guess I am very apprehensive about that though because I wonder what exactly this person would do and how would it affect the freedom of expression. I can't blame the people thinking that it will lead to censorship. I can't blame the supporters for being upset because it was apparently promised to them.
I think what a lot of this mess comes down to is transparency.
Comment on Resignation of OTW Director
acidbirth Mon 22 May 2023 07:24PM UTC
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Prismatic Bell (PrismaticBell) Tue 23 May 2023 02:29AM UTC
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